Ambassador of Russia to South Africa Ilya Rogachev's interview with 'Boermedia' channel

Koot van der Ryst: Ons is by die Russies ambassade in Pretoria en gaan nou ‘n onderhoud voer met die Russiese ambassadeur. Ek sit nou hier saam met Mr Ilya Rogachev.

Privet, Mr. Rogachev, thanks for the opportunity

Ilya Rogachev: Добро пожаловать, you're very welcome here.

Koot van der Ryst: Thank you sir if you can just give us a history, in the beginning I just wanted to tell our viewers a little bit.

Ons gaan in die begin net gou eers ‘n snel vraag afdeling het waar ons moet hom vra wat hier in die Russiese ambasade werk vir ons te help om die vertaling te doen want ons wil baie graag vir julle wys die verskil dis in Afrikaans en Russies. En ons gaan die eerste paar vra wat ons vir Mr Rogachev gevra het gaan ons in Afrikaans vra en dit gaan vertaal in die Russies toe. Maar…

But before we continue with the questions that we have for you, can you just give us a brief history of how did it happen, when did you start your career in politics, and a little bit more about yourself?

Ilya Rogachev: Thank you thank you for asking uh it's rather in diplomacy than in politics, I'm not there yet. So I began my diplomatic career in 1984, quite some time ago, just as I graduated from the Moscow State Institute of international relations, just like many generations of Soviet and Russian, as well as diplomats from other countries.

Koot van der Ryst: But you also had a role in the United Nations or did I read it…

Ilya Rogachev: I was posted twice to the Russian permanent mission to the United Nations, so I worked for the government.

Koot van der Ryst: Now, what did you do there? I know it's diplomacy but what kind of work? I'm just curious because we, Boers, we just want to find out whether you use a spade or are you just driving the bakkie to let the crops grow?

Ilya Rogachev: Neither one, it's much worse, it's heavier. Well, I covered some legal issues, human rights and so on, social affairs both times. I spent altogether 9 years there, you can hear my Bronx accent.

Koot van der Ryst: So you know France well?

Ilya Rogachev: Sorry?

Koot van der Ryst: You know France? I believe you studied France.

Ilya Rogachev: I studied French, as the first…

Koot van der Ryst: French, yes… you see we're talking the English language here, and I think that's also my third language.

Ilya Rogachev: Impressive!

Koot van der Ryst: Mr Rogachev, what we're going to do now is we're going to ask Polina to come and join us here. So, Polina, if you don't mind, if you can come and join us here? To our viewers: Polina Kulakova is absolutely proficient in Afrikaans. Kom ek se weer dit in Afrikaans. Sy kan Afrikaans baie mooi praat. Polina, jy kom uit Rusland, jy is Rus gebore en jy praat Afrikaans.

Polina Kulakova: Dis waarheid, maar my Afrikaans is nie so professioneel nie, maar dankie.

Koot van der Ryst: Dit is baie mooi. Ek gaan nie eers probeer om Russies te praat nie, ek probeer te groet in Russies, maar dit is vir my op hierdie stadium Grieks (Afrikaans expression to indicate that it is not understandable).

Polina, Mr. Rogachev, I’m going to ask you questions in Afrikaans now, you answer them in Russian, and we’re going to use Polina here to do the translation for us.

Hier is ons paar persoonlike Afrikaanse vra wat ons aan Mr Rogachev wil vra. As u in Suid Afrika vakansie hou, watter plekke besoek u?

Polina Kulakova: Несколько личных вопросов, г-ну Рогачеву, и первый из них – когда Вы отдыхаете в ЮАР, какие места Вы посещаете?

Ilya Rogachev: Обычно я отдыхаю дома, чаще всего.

Polina Kulakova: Gewoonlik is Mr Rogachev op vakansie in Rusland, nie in Suid-Afrika nie.

Ilya Rogachev: Здесь, к сожалению, мало возможностей для того, чтобы заниматься туризмом, хотелось бы иметь больше времени для этого.

Polina Kulakova: Ongelukkig, daar is nie genoeg tyd om vakansie hier te spandeer nie.

Ilya Rogachev: Но я, конечно, посещал и Западный Кейп, и Восточный Кейп, и Фри Стейт, Лимпопо и Мпумалангу. Так что я немного здесь поездил.

Polina Kulakova: Maar ek het ‘n moontlikheid gehad om rondom Suid-Afrika te rys. Byvoorbeeld, was ek in Wes-Kaap, en Oos-Kaap, en Vrystaat, Limpopo en Mpumalanga.

Koot van der Ryst: Mr Rogachev, as u die voortuig bestuur wat doen u as u by die slaggate kom?

Polina Kulakova: Господин Рогачев, когда Вы видите яму на дороге, что Вы делаете?

Ilya Rogachev: Жму на газ, чтобы проскочить побыстрее.

Polina Kulakova: Hy ry vinniger dan.

Koot van der Ryst: I assume you have a 4×4.

Hoe voel die die gemiddelde Russiese burger oor SA as 'n vakansie bestemming en hoe bekostigbaar is dit vir hulle middelklas om hier te kom vakansie te kom hou?

Polina Kulakova: Насколько доступной является Южная Африка как направление для туризма для среднестатистического россиянина?

Ilya Rogachev: Доступна, в целом. Но дело в том, что ЮАР имеет свою специфику как туристическое направление. Здесь неудобно путешествовать большими группами, как это принято во многих других случаях, по 40-50 чел., вот этими огромными автобусами. Это скорее индивидуальный или семейный туризм, в небольших группах.

Polina Kulakova: Beskikbaar, bekostigbaar vir Russiese mense Suid-Afrika toe gaan, maar dis ‘n spesifieke bestemming, nie vir grote groepe van mense (ongeveer 40-50 mense) nie as gewoonlik. Dis meer ‘n private toerisme of familie toerisme.

Ilya Rogachev: Ну, и, конечно, самое большое неудобство – это как расплачиваться, чем платить, поскольку из-за санкций наши карты многие заблокированы, и возить с собой большое количество наличности неудобно.

Polina Kulakova: Die grootste kwestie is ook met kontant, met die geld. Dis nie gemaklik om hier te betaal. En Russiese mense moet groot sake met kontant kry.

Koot van der Ryst: Ek verstaan. Nou laat ons gaan ‘n bietjie uit. Hou u van jag of visvang?

Polina Kulakova: Давайте сменим тему разговора. Вы любите охоту или рыбалку?

Ilya Rogachev: Я люблю, но у меня не остается времени на них.

Polina Kulakova: Ek geniet visvang en jag, maar daar is geen tyd om dit te doen nie.

Koot van der Ryst: Ons sal tyd moet maak om jou te help. We’ll have to make time to help you do a little bit more, especially of the one that we do most day. Wat se boek wat jy gelees het of fliek wat jy gekyk het, het jou geïnspireer en waarom?

Polina Kulakova: Какая книга или фильм Вас вдохновили когда-то?

Ilya Rogachev: Сложно сказать, таких книг много и хороших фильмов немало. Я не могу назвать что-то одно. Но, конечно, классическая русская литература прежде всего.

Polina Kulakova: Dis ‘n bietjie moeilik om een boek of een fliek te noem. Daar is baie boeke en flieke wat ek kan noem. Maar om presies te wees Russiese klassieke literatuur.

Koot van der Ryst: Se ver hom dis ‘n tipiese antwoord van die Ambassaduer.

Polina Kulakova: Nie tiepese

Koot van der Ryst: No, I’m joking, I said that’s a typical; answer of an ambassador.

Het u al ‘n besoek op ‘n plaas by ‘n boer in SA se platteland afgelê? En het u al saam met ‘n paar boere gekuier om ‘n braaivleisvuur?

Polina Kulakova: Господин Рогачев, Вы когда-нибудь были на бурской ферме, в сельской местности и посещали браай вместе с бурами?

Ilya Rogachev: Да, был несколько раз, в разных местах.

Polina Kulakova: Mr Rogachev het sommige keer braai bygewoon met boere ook.

Koot van der Ryst: Was hulle gasvry?

Polina Kulakova: Они были дружелюбны по отношению к Вам?

Ilya Rogachev: Да, они были очень дружелюбны, и я нахожу, что это очень приятное времяпрепровождение.

Polina Kulakova: Ja, hulle was baie gasvry. Dit is ‘n lekker tyd in Suid-Afrika.

Ilya Rogachev: Мы в России тоже любим делать шашлыки, это такая разновидность браая, и тоже общаться, сидеть у огня.

Polina Kulakova: Ons geniet in Rusland ook braai of shashlik. Ons noem dit shashlik, nie braai nie. Ons geniet by die vuur sit en gesels met mense.

Koot van der Ryst: Ons noem dit bostelevisie. Die vuur is vir ons soos n televisie. Ons kyk nie die televisie nie, maar ons sit rondom die vuur en kuier.

Polina Kulakova: Мы называем это «телевидение на природе», когда мы сидим вокруг огня и разговариваем друг с другом.

Koot van der Ryst: Wat is u gunsteling sport?

Polina Kulakova: Какой Ваш любимый спорт?

Ilya Rogachev: Хоккей.

Polina Kulakova: Hockey is my gunstelling sport.

Ilya Rogachev: Ice hockey, yes.

Koot van der Ryst: Mr Rogachev, goed ons nie met ys hockey in Suid-Afrika nie, want Suid-Afrika is te warm. Ek dink ons ysbane gaan smelt. Maar ons speel rugby. Het u al 'n rugbywedstryd bygewoon hier in Suid Afrika?

Polina Kulakova: Наверное, в ЮАР не так популярен хоккей, потому что лед растает, но регби очень популярен. Были ли Вы когда-либо на матче по регби?

Ilya Rogachev: Да, был, смотрел. Я болел за южноафриканскую команду, которая обыграла французскую команду.

Polina Kulakova: Ek het ‘n rugby wedsrtyd bygewoon. Dit was ‘n speel tussen Fraanse en Suid-Afrikaanse spanne. Ek was vir die Suid-Afrikaanse span wat gewen het.

Koot van der Ryst: Word daar ook rugby in Rusland gespeel?

Polina Kulakova: Играют ли в регби в России?

Ilya Rogachev: В России играют в регби, но по популярности, я думаю, этот вид спорта где-то в середине или, может быть, в конце второй десятки.

Polina Kulakova: Ja, rugby word ook in Rusland gespeel. Maar dis nie so popular nie. Mieskien dis in die einde van top-10 sport in Rusland.

Koot van der Ryst: I think, Mr. Rogachev, that’s also one of the reasons why we need to talk more to the Afrikaaner and Boer people, because we will help you with rugby in Russia, to become one of the most popular sports. That was just a side note.

Ilya Rogachev: Thank you very much for this idea but it is being implemented and we have quite a number of South African players and, I think, coaches as well in Russia who are in our Premier League, and… Yes, this process is, but we would welcome more, more assistance in this.

Koot van der Ryst: We'll talk about it definitely.

Ilya Rogachev: We need to get better

Koot van der Ryst: Exactly.

Wat is jou gunsteling musiekgenre of -kunstenaar?

Polina Kulakova: Какая Ваше любимое африканерское блюдо?

Ilya Rogachev: Я «мясной» человек, мне очень нравится браай, все виды.

Polina Kulakova: Ek is ‘n vleisman. Ek geniet al die vleis in Suid-Agrika.

Koot van der Ryst: Dis goed om te hoor.

Polina Kulakova: Замечательно, приятно слышать.

Koot van der Ryst: Is daar enige interessante tradisies of gebruike in Suid-Afrika, spesifiek tov die Boerekultuur wat jou opval in vergelyking met Rusland?

Polina Kulakova: Есть ли в африканерской среде традиции и обычаи, которые отличаются от российских?

Ilya Rogachev: Я каких-то впечатляющих различий не нашел.

Polina Kulakova: Daar is nie baie verskil nie.

Ilya Rogachev: Я думаю, что есть небольшие вещи, которые можно было бы перенять друг у друга. В частности, что на себя здесь обращает внимание – почти во всех семьях стремятся иметь как можно больше детей. Это не та культура, которая у нас процветает в России. Я думаю, что это [такая культура] очень правильно, именно так и должно быть. И хотелось бы, чтобы такой подход к созданию семьи возобладал и у нас тоже.

Polina Kulakova: Daar is sommige tradities of gewone wat Russiese kan kry. Bevoorbeeld, Afrikaans families he meer kinders. Ek dink dis die regte beleid dat ons kan ook in ons realiteit implementeer.

Koot van der Ryst: Daar is ‘n ekstra vra. Ons het ‘n boer musiek. Wat is ‘n traditioneel musiek in Rusland?

Polina Kulakova: В ЮАР есть традиционная африканерская музыка, есть ли в России народная музыка?

Ilya Rogachev: Да, конечно, у нас и собственно народная музыка развита, есть свои народные инструменты, в разных частях России разные. Инструменты, манера исполнения – в том числе, например, горловое пение на Севере. Существует и такой более современный жанр музыки, как русский романс, «romantic songs». И, конечно, очень значительная часть той музыки, которая считается классической, написана русскими композиторами.

Polina Kulakova: Daar is volk musiek ook in Rusland. En verskillende dele van Rusland het verskillende volk musiek. Byvoorbeeld, die Noord van Rusland is beroemd met koor musiek. En daar is ook die Russiese romance of romantieke liedjies. Daar is ook ‘n klassieke musiek wat is deur Russiese skrywers geskep.

Koot van der Ryst: We saw a few of those cultural performances of the Russian music, and I think, you know, that was very good music that we heard, from the Russian music, so I would say I would want to translate some of those songs from Russian to Afrikaans. I think it would become good songs in South Africa, to be quite honest…

Ilya Rogachev: Only after office hours.

Koot van der Ryst: Exactly.

Mr. Rogachev, I just want to talk to our viewers quickly.

Soos julle kan sien is Russies en Afrikaans is 'n moeilike ding. Ek dink arme Polina het regtigwaar. Sy moet mooi sit om alles te balanseer. Ek bedoel ek sukkel so met Engels.

Maar in die volgende stukkie sal ons oor ons taal praat, oor Russies en Afrikaans. En die feit is so ons nie met mekaar kon kommunikeer nie maak dit vir ons moeilik om verskille te bespreek en debateer.

Mr. Rogachev, what we are saying is the fact that we have differences in our languages makes it difficult for us to debate issues, so if you and I have a problem we rather decide not to discuss it because we stand away, because we don't understand one another, I can't express myself in my language. That's why we want to take this one closer, to talk about language, how do you accommodate us with Afrikaans and, on our side, how can we learn Russian language. Because of the huge barriers that stand between our cultural groups and yours, we want to make this communication more effectively. So one of the questions - before you [Polina] leave, we're almost there, then then you can leave – I want to ask you the number of letters in your alphabet, how many letters do you have in your alphabet?

Ilya Rogachev: 33… I think, yes, 33

Koot van der Ryst: Vir ons kykers dalk julle jouself sien hoe meer letters hoe meer woorde kan gemaak word met hierdie alphabet.

Ilya Rogachev: And we made it easier during the last centuries, we got rid of a number of letters got much more yes really

Koot van der Ryst: Is it so, even..?

Ilya Rogachev: It used to be much more, yes

Koot van der Ryst: Really? But I also see there's a ‘three,’ that is one of the letters… Or is it just flip… ‘e’ or what?

Ilya Rogachev: Oh, it's like ‘Zed’ in English

Koot van der Ryst: Like ‘ze’

Ilya Rogachev: ‘Zee’, yes…

Koot van der Ryst: Okay. Let me just ask my questions here, I stick to the script. What specific challenges or opportunities for language learning between Russian and Afrikaans speakers do you see when you engage in Afrikaans people?

Ilya Rogachev: Well, I don't see any insurmountable problems on this path. I mean, in Russia there are several places where one can study Afrikaans, it's somewhat more difficult for the Russian language in South Africa, unfortunately. But in Russia there are at least three universities where one can study Afrikaans: it's in the Moscow State University , and within it there is the Institute of Asian and African countries, it is located just opposite to the Kremlin, by the way, like 300 metres. So they usually have a group studying Afrikaans there. Then there is another traditional place, the one that I have graduated from, as I mentioned - Moscow State Institute of international relations. And also in Kazan Federal University, there is short course of Afrikaans for students of the Institute of international relations, history and oriental studies. So there are three places then where uh it has being taught and… Да, Полина, расскажи, пожалуйста, как ты учила африкаанс.

Polina Kulakova: Wil jy my antwoord in Afrikaans of in Engels?

Koot van der Ryst: You can do it in English, yeah. Let’s stick to English, so that at least Mr. Rogachev can understand it as well.

Polina Kulakova: In Russia, as it was mentioned there are three universities that give Afrikaans lessons. These lessons are fully implemented in the program, so if you take the course you study the language for four years during your Bachelor studies, and then you can continue with your master studies, and all in all study the language for 6 years, as I did myself. So we had classes three times per week at my University, that is the Moscow State Institute of international relations. It was the second language after English, in the other university that was mentioned also, that is the famous One Moscow State University, the students usually have classes even six times per week, so they have like a full understanding of the language, of the country… not even the country, but the whole region of Southern Africa, because the students also have introduction into the history, geography, culture, and they manage to communicate with South Africans living in Russia for example from the South African Embassy in Russia. So I would say the students have a good… like preparation before going to the country. But the professors that give lessons - they are Russian, and they themselves even managed to publish several books, dictionaries and even the book of political translation has been released already. And you can study even without knowing English, you can study Afrikaans just from the scratch.

Koot van der Ryst: If you have to compare Russian with Afrikaans how difficult would you say is it. Because for us it's very difficult, but for you… How difficult was it?

Polina Kulakova: Personally I believe that Afrikaans is a bit easier for us to study, especially if a person for example studied German or any other language from this group, so you can understand the structure some words also, you can know them even without learning them specifically. The problem is probably the oral practice and listening; because we need more of that to master the language.

Koot van der Ryst: Is that why the students would come to South Africa for a period?

Polina Kulakova: That is indeed the case.

Koot van der Ryst: Then you get friends here, and then those friends who talk Afrikaans with them, and then you start whatsapping on one another with an Afrikaans.

Polina Kulakova: You can do like that.

Koot van der Ryst: Absolutely. Polina, spasibo! Thank you very much for helping us here and do the translation today, with this interview.

Polina Kulakova: Baie dankie.

Koot van der Ryst: Mr. Rogachev, there's just one thing that I actually picked up about the Russian language, and it says that over a quarter of the world scientific literature is published in Russian. Russian is also applied as a means of coding and storage of universal knowledge. 60 to 70% of all world information is published in English and Russian languages and Russian is one of the six official languages of the United Nations, is that correct?

Ilya Rogachev: Yes, it is, yes. Well, I was not aware about the numbers that you have provided, but it is one of the sixth official languages, yes, and many people outside Russia use it, especially in the former Soviet Union, of course, and the former Soviet republics - now independent states and beyond, actually. As many people studied Russian and uh studied in Russia, and there are a lot of exchanges and areas where Soviet scientists and Russian scientists are in the first ranks. So others are interested in having literature in original language from Russia.

Koot van der Ryst: You talked about regional languages, I see here, it says there's about 190 something ethnic groups and then there are some 100 languages.

Ilya Rogachev: Yes.

Koot van der Ryst: So how do the languages differ? I read about 85 Federal subjects how do they differ throughout Russia? In terms of dialect and accents.

Ilya Rogachev: Well, it's not just dialects and accents, it's completely different languages. There are places in Russia, like in the Caucasus in the Dagestan, for example, or in the Far East, where very small ethnoses, like… comprising just several hundred people, speak a language that their neighbors do not understand even. There are historical reasons for that, in particular in the Caucasus, but people in one village do not understand the language of people in the neighboring village, this may often be the case. And the languages are pretty different they belong to different families of languages, they are quite different. So it's not easy, but we are used to live like that because we've always lived like that. Somehow we manage.

Koot van der Ryst: But you do respect all the people with different languages, with different cultures you…

Ilya Rogachev: Oh, yes, yes, of course, and it is very important from different points of view including from purely scientific point of view, and there are programs, state-run programs of preserving heritages including languages of the small ethnoses. Unfortunately uh in the last century few languages - it's not that they disappear, I wanted to say that - but they are not spoken anymore. So we need to preserve at least the written. If there is a written language we need to preserve this. And there are people and there’re resources that are allocated to this goal and as I said this is a state policy.

Koot van der Ryst: One of the Afrikaans people that I spoke to is actually a radio commentator, he explained it the other day very interesting to me. He said that language is like uh a bowl of water. So the water is your language. So the more you speak your language the more the water becomes, and the more freedom you have to express, and to be yourself. And that analogy stayed with me, whenever people try to oppress one's language you're actually taking out the water, and you actually let that fish or that person die in who he really is. But that was just a side note. The last question on language is: I've tried to find some Africaans institutions on the internet that would allow us to learn in class Russian here in South Africa. Are you aware of any institutions in South Africa or are they only online?

Ilya Rogachev: Unfortunately, I'm not aware and there are none of Institutions that would teach Russian in class and it's only available online. But we are in partnership, in working partnership with the St Petersburg University and some other institutions in Russia, and we try to have as many online courses as possible. And we with great satisfaction note that there is a demand for studying Russian. Right now there are about 1500 students who are learning Russian online and there will be more certainly. We accept applications twice per year, and the next intake will be in September 2024, this coming September, so who is interested – there is an opportunity, there is a possibility to do that.

Koot van der Ryst: Okay

Ilya Rogachev: But we working, of course, on having Russian language taught in class. We are hopeful.

Koot van der Ryst: I have to say I found several guys, I didn't realize, you know, on some of the groups that we are, and people that are speaking to us, that have actually indicated that they're busy with something like that, an online course, so we'll definitely have a look at that.

Mr Rogachev, now the more interesting part we want to talk about – a little bit of history and culture. We are sitting here and I want to talk about the history and culture, so that we can help our viewers understand both sides a little bit better. Sometimes we have to go back in the past to learn from our mistakes, and that is this is why I love history. History is something that you cannot change, but you can always learn from it. I think that we are all unfortunately in that position we can't do much about the history we can only learn from it. And then I also want to quote one of our old presidents, President Paul Krueger. He said take out of the past what is good and build on it for the future. That was my translation. So the Afrikaans people, if I translated it wrong, just put it in the comments of the video and say if I was wrong or not, but you're welcome.

So, our history, from Boer and Afrikaner people, started basically in 1652. Now, I just wanted to give a little bit of a background to our viewers. So we basically started in 1652, while Russia's history started in the 9th century after Christ, in the medieval period. So basically we are around for only 370 years, while Russia is around for 1,100 years. That's why we’re going now with my next question. I don't want you to take us back all the way to the 9th century, but just give us a brief history or background if you can, especially of the last 200 years to make people understand how the Russian system worked. I mean you had Tsardom, is it similar to a monarchy? People don't understand that, they want to know and so, say, they ask questions: was Russia also an imperial country and did they have Royals?

Ilya Rogachev: You know I would like if you allow me to go back a little bit to the beginning of your introduction to this part when you said that history cannot be changed. Yes, it cannot be changed, but it can be rewritten. And this is something that we're witnessing now. The process is in full bloom as there are different attempts, in particular, to smear Russia's history, Russian state, Russian people, to rewrite history in many aspects, in particular, making USSR equally responsible with Nazi Germany for the beginning of the Second World War and equating Stalin to Hitler in terms of responsibility for the beginning of the Second World War and so on. And of course you can hear that allies – meaning Americans, and the Brits, and the French – won the Second World War while 80% of Wehrmacht fought on the Eastern Front, that is against us, against USSR, as Russia is the continuing State, and 85% of the losses that Wehrmacht suffered in the Second World War - it suffered on the Eastern front. The turning point of the Second World War as you can hear wasn't the Battle of Midway but it was the Battle of Kursk, of Stalingrad and other battles that were fought on the Eastern front by the Germans. So, this is just an example how it can be not changed but rewritten. But for many people who do not know the real course of events, were not aware of it, it can be changed, yes. And then you just can, you know, extrapolate why it is being done on modern times – and you will clearly see political reasons for doing that. Now to Russian history.

Koot van der Ryst: Yeah.

Ilya Rogachev: I will not go back to the 9th century, if somebody is interested – recently there was an absolutely breathtaking interview by our president Mr Putin to Tucker Carlson, and the first half hour it was dedicated exactly to the history. And that of course wasn't just, you know, by chance but the president did it in a premeditated manner to allow listeners, the audience, to better understand all the complexity and historical background of our relationship with modern Ukraine and Ukrainians. But for us what is important, and you actually ask about the Tsardom of Russia and Russian Empire and how did the system work.

Well, Russia began in several feudal principalities, and I think the fourth capital of was already Moscow principality that gained strength in early 15th century. And then it subordinated other principalities and then acquired more territories, and eventually became an empire. There is a date for this event, it is 1721 when Peter the Great at that time known as Tsar Peter I proclaimed himself emperor responding to the appeal by members of Russia's Senate. And the Senate proceeded from the fact that Russia won a very important war in its history that lasted from 1700 to 1721 – we call it the Northern war, and that was against Sweden. In the late 16th 17th century Sweden – imagine it – was the strongest, the biggest, the most aggressive state in Europe. It's not the Sweden that we know now. And its emperor Charles XII was one of the most successful military leaders of his time, perhaps the most successful, at least in in Europe. So that war cost us a lot and it meant a lot to the Russian society. And when we won it we reacquired historically Russian lands on the Baltic Sea and so we gained access to the Baltic Sea that was important for developing trade, in particular. And so Peter the Great proclaimed himself emperor of all Russia. And basically it was a formality in many ways: it didn't change really the way the country was governed and the Russians continued to call their ruler Tsar, so both names were used, both titles.

Koot van der Ryst: Tsar or emperor?

Ilya Rogachev: Emperor or tsar, yes. And that was this event, this war that led to proclaiming empire. But in fact the unification of Russian principalities, Russian lands, of Russians – I think that we cannot already use the term Eastern Slavic tribes, they were Russians by that time - it began two centuries prior to that – [when] the tsar, Moscow tsar Ivan IV when he defeated the Khanate of Kazan and then it was followed by Siberia’s unification with Russia. And then I would like to mention yet another war and another battle and that was against the Golden Horde, the Mongol and Tatar entity, after they subordinated separate Russian principalities, most of them, actually. And for more than 200 years, most of Russians lived under the yoke of Mongol-Tatars. But it was 1380 when Russians defeated Mongol-Tatars in a battle on the so-called Kulikovo pole (Kulikovo field). That was a very significant moment again in our history, when people from different principalities united. One of the prominent Russian historians wrote that people from different principalities came to that field, stood there, fought there, and they were from Moscow, from Rostov and from different cities - Vladimir and Tver and others. So they came there like that, but they went back as Russians already. So that was a very prominent moment in our history when the nation, Russian Nation basically was formed. I mean if somebody needs a formal date – this is it for that moment.

Koot van der Ryst: You say the formal date 14..?

Ilya Rogachev: 1380.

Koot van der Ryst: 1380, yeah, okay. So you said that was the catalyst that formulated the Russian Nation, or the start of the Russian nation.

Ilya Rogachev: Yes. It sort of capped already the process.

Koot van der Ryst: I'm with you. But then, after that, you know, different cultures find themselves within - what do you call it? – the geopolitical movement in there, so of course there were different cultures in there, but did Russia also then try to expand through conquest and colonization to the western side?

Ilya Rogachev: Well, nowadays there is a negative connotation to the word ‘empire’…

Koot van der Ryst: I wanted to correct myself. Yet back then, with the glasses that we use back then…

Ilya Rogachev: Of course again there is this anti-Russian interpretation of history – saying that Russia colonized so many lands and peoples. No, it was different. The circumstances that led to establishing of the Russian State and Russian Empire in these borders, like a tremendous land mass, they were particular and special. You see, I started talking about our war with the Swedes but… Yes, the Swedes attacked and took away some lands on the shore of the Baltic Sea previously, and then we had to get them back in this Northern War. But there was also another very strong and dangerous neighbor of ours to the West which was Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 16th century - early 17th century. And they attacked also Russian principalities [which were] divided at that time. And we also had this very difficult period in our history when Russian state was on the brink and could disappear: the so-called Troubled Times, Trouble Times.

Koot van der Ryst: Yeah, when was the Trouble Times?

Ilya Rogachev: It was end of the 16th century and up to 1612. Everything ended by the end of the year 1612, and Romanov dynasty began in 1613, and they ruled for more than 300 years in Russia. And the election of tsar, of the first tsar of Roman dynasty in 1613 basically put the end to the Troubled Timesю

Koot van der Ryst: Is that Michael I?

Ilya Rogachev: Yes. It was people's militia basically not the military (that were dispersed) that chased away the Polish-Lithuanian interventionists. The Polish henchmen sat in Kremlin for more than two years, actually. So, again, the Russian state was in a very precarious situation and people united. It was people militia who fought this war and became victorious in it.

Koot van der Ryst: So can we say it's people who take charge of their own destiny…

Ilya Rogachev: Exactly.

Koot van der Ryst: …who took basically over it?

Ilya Rogachev: Yes, that's what I wanted to say. But that was our very dangerous neighbor on the western side who coveted permanently some Russian lands and even dreamed of having their King – Polish king – in Moscow, in Kremlin.

Koot van der Ryst: Yeah.

Ilya Rogachev: But in the South there was also some danger, in particular, we bordered… there was no border because between us there was no man's land, but in Crimea there were remnants of one of the branches of Mongol-Tatar invasion. People stayed there - the Crimean tatars who accepted Islam and were dependent upon Ottoman empire. They paid tribute to Ottoman empire, and they were directed in many cases by the Ottomans. And one of the, you know, places to prey for them were Southern Russian principalities. They suffered a lot.

Koot van der Ryst: I see.

Ilya Rogachev: And in particular, Crimean tatars used to simply catch people and then sell them on the slave markets in Istanbul or through Ottomans to Western Europe. So that was the danger in in the South.

In the East though the situation was quite different because these enormous lands were very sparsely populated and peoples living there had been subjugated prior to that by the Golden Horde, and they wanted to get rid of the Mongolian rule at that time. So Siberia – which you can read in the Western Historical textbooks was “annexed” and “colonized” and so on – it was basically liberated because the whole Siberia was… The Cossacks went there with a detachment of just about 800 people…

Koot van der Ryst: Who were the Cossacks?

Ilya Rogachev: We will get there. So that was not the state-run company, that was not state politics but the Cossacks – the free men, basically – went there on their own and they conquered with 800 men and two or three cannons the whole of Siberia because people gladly… well, they had some battles, but in many cases people gladly accepted the, you know, protection that was guaranteed by Moscow, by tsars, Russian tsars from Moscow. So that was not colonization like in Africa, for example, by the Europeans.

And then of course these reasons, these political or perhaps even military reasons. I told you that in the North, in the West, and in the South Russians had pretty strong and aggressive entities who coveted Russian lands, in particular, forests, resources that come from the forests – furs etc.

Koot van der Ryst: I saw in the west, there's always commotion going on there on the western side, you know, it was kind of always this way and then that way they pushed on that on the western side

Ilya Rogachev: Absolutely. Well, if you go even further back in history then you could see that Slavic tribes used to live much more to the west and to the South than they were in the Middle Ages, but they were squeezed out by Germanic tribes. And so they had to go east. And then in the lands that are adjacent to the Black Sea, to the Aral Sea, to the Caspian Sea – that was basically the corridor which was used for the many-many peoples, nomads, from the East to move to the West. Like during this period of the Great Migration of Peoples. So the Slavs had to move to the north. This is how we got mixed with the Finnish-Ugorian tribes.

Koot van der Ryst: I'm with you.

Ilya Rogachev: But that's very far in history.

Koot van der Ryst: Yeah.

Ilya Rogachev: So at that time as I said on the three sides we had pretty aggressive neighbors, and psychologically it was necessary for the Russians, you know, to expand the lands under their control, so they moved to the North, to the East, and to the South to reach the natural borders. It was impossible already in the West but in three other directions it was possible. And the idea was to protect the hardcore Russia, the principalities that were in the European part – what we now call European part of Russia – and to protect its people, and to protect faith that was very important.

Koot van der Ryst: Yeah.

Ilya Rogachev: So many parties, geographical parties, went to the North, and then to the East, and then to the South. And there were few wars fought in the South and on all sides. And, you know, that was basically how empire appeared: because we needed to establish certain control over the lands in order to prevent further aggressions which we didn't manage.

Koot van der Ryst: But I have to say, I see you did not only have male rulers in your list of emperors or tsars. I see Elizabeth, I see Anna, I see Catherine. I see Catherine was after Peter the Great, so she did some… when do they get the term ‘the Great’?

Ilya Rogachev: Well actually Catherine II (prior to her was Catherine I) – she actually contributed a lot to the development of the Russian state, Russian culture, Russian science, and this is why she was nicknamed Catherine the Great. But she's not Russian ethnically, she's princess from Schleswig-Holstein in Germany.

Koot van der Ryst: So basically from Germany.

Ilya Rogachev: Yes.

Koot van der Ryst: Okay.

Ilya Rogachev: She was brought to marry a crown prince and so she, after a chain of events, she became empress of Russia. But she made absolutely incomparable contribution to the advancement of everything that is positive in Russia and this is why she, I think, she deserved that title.

Koot van der Ryst: But very interesting for me to see – if I just go back to about the 1600s I see there's about seven of these rulers - let's call it rulers – emperors or tsars – that were deposed or assassinated. That's very interesting, you know, just it shows you that it was a tough battle to stay on the, let's call it throne then.

Ilya Rogachev: Well, yes that was absolutely in line with the mores and traditions, in particular, of Europe. I'm not talking about other parts of the world but I think like everywhere.

Koot van der Ryst: Yes, I did not check the other countries I mean I saw a lot of that as well on that side.

Ilya Rogachev: Yes, it was the same in Russia. A lot of infighting not only between the rulers or princes of different principalities, because many of them were brothers, siblings, cousins and so on.

Koot van der Ryst: Now, let's get to that story…

Ilya Rogachev: Yes, also infighting like real full-scale wars between principalities as well.

Koot van der Ryst: Now, that story you told us in one of the meetings before, and I want you to tell our viewers again about that one. I think it's Wilhelm II from Germany he was the counselor – am I right? – of Germany…

Ilya Rogachev: Chancellor, yes.

Koot van der Ryst: Chancellor, and then Nicholas II was the tsar from Russia, and then George V was the king of Britain. Now there was a period from 1910 till 1917 where all three of them were ruling their countries. Just tell us about that three cousins, what do you know about them and anything else about their history.

Ilya Rogachev: Well, I do not know a lot, actually, especially I cannot tell you like bringing in the third cousin Wilhelm. But there is a very telling history of relationship between Nicholas II and George V.

Koot van der Ryst: And they kind of look alike if you if look at them.

Ilya Rogachev: Absolutely, if you type in ‘photo of…’ these two at least in Russian segment of Internet you will immediately have this picture or several of them when they are together and they look like siblings not if not twins. Not like cousins. And sometimes it's only the outfit, you can distinguish them only by the outfit.

There is a projection of… Well, I mean that it's not only physical closeness, similarity, but they were relatively close, I think, in their personal relationship and it has a projection on our history of relationship, between the Russians and the Boers, because when Paul Krueger asked Nicholas II to interfere and to protect the Boer states from the British colonizers it was this relationship – the family ties that prevented Nicholas II from entering this war though all Russian society including political class was sympathetic with the Boers.

Koot van der Ryst: So is that the reason?

Ilya Rogachev: That's the reason, as far as I know.

Koot van der Ryst: But the other the other side was also, that's why Paul Kruger spoke to Nicholas II “hey talk to your cousin and see, you know, something about that” - that's just a speculation from my side. But that was interesting because if their relationship was so good – I read somewhere that in 1917 when Nicholas II abdicated George V did not want to give him protection in Britain.

Ilya Rogachev: Well, Nicholas II behaved in the Russian way, how he thought it was appropriate, so he refused to enter the war with the British empire formally, but he said to the court, and that trickled down, that he wouldn't oppose volunteers going to assist the Boers and that was used by many. Well, this is a separate issue…

Koot van der Ryst: So, Russia did not send officially soldiers here but the volunteers could come?

Ilya Rogachev: Yes, the volunteers and then the emperor funded from his own money the Red Cross team that came here and stayed in Newcastle, in particular, and then – 50/50 they funded [it] with the king of the Netherlands – another Red Cross hospital that also was deployed on the Boer side but actually helped all the victims…

Koot van der Ryst: In total, how many Russian volunteers were here to help in the Anglo-Boer War, the second one?

Ilya Rogachev: We do not know exactly but certainly more than 220-230, more than that. Up to 270 - this is what the latest researches say.

Koot van der Ryst: But if you look at those medical groups or medical people that helped I think it could have been more.

Ilya Rogachev: It's more, yes, it's more, we count people who fought. So that was the behavior, and the line, and the policy on the Russian side in this, and then, you're absolutely right, George V behaved in appropriate manner in his own way. When the emperor’s family was in danger they did not provide, George V, the Brits did not provide them with shelter. And so they ended up being shot.

Koot van der Ryst: Or as they say executed.

Ilya Rogachev: Executed, yes.

Koot van der Ryst: This is actually a very sad story with the fact that the emperor and his whole family got executed, am I right?

Ilya Rogachev: Yes, most probably. There are the different, you know, rumors about that, who was shot/executed, where, when, and if somebody survived but no there was official version that is corroborated by extensive research saying that they all unfortunately died at that time, at that place Yekaterinburg.

Koot van der Ryst: And the fingers point to Leon Trotsky?

Ilya Rogachev: Well, again, it's debatable who gave the exact order, and how it was interpreted, and implemented. Again there are many details.

Koot van der Ryst: Before we talk about Russian volunteers a little bit in depth I just want to ask you something that we all have to hear and we all, unfortunately, have to talk through and understand. Did Russia also have slavery? People don't understand that completely. We all think that when we are born, we are born into a perfect world. But we have to look back at the past again and see that Russia also had slavery and it was called serfdom and it prevailed for a few centuries, I think, two or three centuries. What is serfdom? One thing that our viewers don't understand right now and I don't know what is a “serf” and I don't know what a “peasant” is. We know what a peasant in terms of the academic definition is. But what is a peasant and what is a serf?

Ilya Rogachev: I want to complement my answer to the previous question a little bit by stating that the Russian Empire in many ways was different from a traditional Empire like Western European colonial empires in particular. There are several features to that that will help us to get to your actual question about serfdom.

The Russian Empire never gave any privileges to the core nation, to the Russians itself, and it never exploited the outskirts and the peoples living outside of historically Russian lands. On the contrary, the Russian Empire just as the USSR did actually invested a lot in the development of its margins and there was no inhumane treatment of indigenous population as it often was the case with the European colonization, in particular in North America and here in Africa.

Russia properly got very little in return from this. That gave reasons to historians to call that foundations for the Russian Empire were not in economic but in political and military, security area rather than anywhere. Other peoples enjoyed protection by Moscow by the mighty Russian army and in particular like Georgia joined Russia, they asked several times for the protectorate from Moscow. They do not like to remember it now. But it is the historical fact because Georgia, being a Christian country, was menaced by the Ottoman Empire on the one side and by the Persian Empire on the other side. That was the reason to conclude a certain treaty that made Georgia part of the Russian Empire.

These vast lands that were acquired with time, as I said, were very sparsely populated mostly. The movement of people was very extensive in the Russian Empire. Economic reason, economic need was to make peasants stay on the land where they were working.

Koot van der Ryst: They were connected to the land, they could move.

Ilya Rogachev: They could move to the South, to the Southeast, to the East and so. This is how Cossacks appeared because with time the Crown, to which formally all the lands belonged, rewarded with the lands its Gentry. The Gentry needed the workforce on their new acquired lands and the problem was to make peasants stay there.

In 1497 there was the Tsar’s Ordinance for the people to stay on their land. They were allowed to change their place of living only for two week period during the year. At least one agricultural season they had to stay on the land where they were to work on it. They had to work for the Gentry and one tenth of the crops they would have to give to the Church. With time the land owners compelled them: made them work more and more and pay more. The one tenth for the Church remained.

Peasants tried to change the landowner or the most entrepreneurial of them, more adventurous of them would travel to the outskirts of the Empire where there was no men's land. They would settle there and this is how different Cossack areas appeared and they got organised in the armies. As the military they received the Freedom charter from the Crown, which said basically that they are free people with only one obligation that in time of war all the male population would come to serve with their horses, with their arms as cavalry to Imperial Army.

Koot van der Ryst: The peasants kind of had an agreement with the army so they must join the army in the war.

Ilya Rogachev: The Cossacks, the free people. The peasants protested, of course, against this form of personal dependency, it is not slavery per se as we know it from the ancient Rome, ancient Greece.

Koot van der Ryst: Let's call it limited rights.

Ilya Rogachev: Well yes, it's more like servage in France or villainage in England. The conditions actually got worse and worse for the peasants. Finally there was just one day left when they could change the landowner and finally after all this day was also canceled. They had to stay where they were and they were tied to the land. If the land was sold so de facto were they.

Koot van der Ryst: What was a period of time?

Ilya Rogachev: This serfdom was cancelled in 1861 after it became very clear that this kind of economic relationship is outdated. It became like a break on the economic development of Russia. It did not answer the necessities of the economic development of industrialization, first of all, of the Russian Empire at that time. The event that showed that very graphically was the Crimean War of 1853 to 1856 that the Russian Empire fought against the Ottoman Empire, France, the British Empire and the Kingdom of Sardinia. The war was lost. One of the few wars that we have lost. The lessons drawn were quite severe; the arms in the Russian army were obsolete. There was no or very slow industrial development that was slowed down by the lack of workforce because peasants could not move to the cities. They could not become the working class because they had to stay on the land. That was a major impediment and Alexander II known as the reformer in our history in 1861, as I said, abolished this serfdom at all. Since then the era of very rapid industrial growth in Russia has begun since 1860s.

Koot van der Ryst: But the serves and the peasants after that period could get private ownership of their own property?

Ilya Rogachev: They had their own property, there were communal lands that they would divide among themselves and there were lands of the landowner where they had to work in the interest of the landowner. The communal lands were there.

Koot van der Ryst: Russia was always strong with agrarian, agricultural group people, they knew how to farm.

Ilya Rogachev: Yes, because of the land, it was predominantly agricultural but in the second half or maybe even last years of the 19^th century, a period of very rapid economic growth, industrialization started. This is when Russia became a very developed by that time standards country with fast growing economy and fast growing population actually. If you project the tendencies of growth of the two that I've mentioned to the future then by the mid-20th century we would have been a country with 500 million people and absolutely undisputedly number one economically. But then we had three revolutions, the First World War, the Civil War, the Second World War and so on.

Koot van der Ryst: The Civil War is one that it stops inside things.

Mr Rogachev, we are running out of time here and I have so much to still ask you. I'm basically just going to jump here to a few topics. I just want to say to our viewers we will not finish the complete interview. I will see if I can get another interview at a later stage with Mr Rogachev. We want to talk about agriculture; but there are some other topics we just wanted to touch on. Mr Rogachev, we all are familiar with the fact that you have a President, which is Mr Vladimir Putin, but you also have a Prime Minister.

Ilya Rogachev: Yes.

Koot van der Ryst: How does that political structure work? Just give us more or lesson, a quick lesson of that system.

Ilya Rogachev: The Prime Minister is the head of the executive; President is somewhere has more powers than just the head of the executive. It is like some kind of a mixture of French and American systems but in between. It's not the French case of “president - arbiter of the nation”, but he is more than just the executive branch.

Koot van der Ryst: A difficult question that I want to put. You're welcome to answer it or not. The reason why I'm asking it, there people that are blaming Mr Putin that he's a dictator. Does that system allow being a dictator or not?

Ilya Rogachev: Not at all, I mean for Russians it's clear. You know it's the continuation of the trend to call Lenin dictator, Stalin dictator and all Russian, Soviet states dictatorships and so on and so forth. Now it's a part of the smearing campaign. He's actually much more democratic than many Western rulers.

Koot van der Ryst: If you can just explain to our viewers that the USSR demolished in 1991 and after that Russia became also more democratic or how does that work?

Ilya Rogachev: Yes, it depends upon what do you mean by democracy because for many Russians it's a four-letter word now and many other parts of the world as well.

Koot van der Ryst: Is it Russian four-letter word or?

Ilya Rogachev: Well, it's an English speaking expression. Democracy is just one of the formats, one of the forms of self-organization of a society. Who said that it's necessarily the best one for everyone? May not be. In 1991 the USSR broke up and how it was done it's a separate story, it's a very long and very interesting legal case. We got rid of this, we got rid of the Communist ideology, we got rid of the Communist system. That was the major change politically from what used to be in the USSR.

Koot van der Ryst: I just want to see the two parallels that happened with the National Party back then when we were moving to the transformation that started happening back then. The Afrikaner people also in 1994 had the Accord. I see you had the Belovezha Accords that were signed by Ukraine and Belarus when the demolishing happened. The [South African] Accord basically said that we would not take violent actions against the democratic elections that would be going to take place. Back then it was signed with the Afrikaner group of people (the National Party) and the ANC. However, the only outcome of that agreement was article 235 - the right to self-determination and that's why we are still looking at self-determination as a minor group.

When we go back to the fact that we talk about our culture and we talk about the volunteers because that was the main subject for our interview I want to find out first (you said your starting point was 1380 when you could basically say you became a nation), I think we also have those dates in our history as a cultural group (Boers and Afrikaners). We had the Battle of Blood River, we had the First Majuba Batlle and then, of course, the Second Boer War. One or two that I want to highlight here is that in 1877 the British marched up to Pretoria and they basically annexed Pretoria with about 25 men or so. The Boers at that time just looked at them and said are you serious? I think Pretoria was only a few buildings. I don't think it was as big as it is now. They pulled up the flag there and it took the Boers three years to work it out that “no, Britain, you are not serious about this”. They tried within that three years period took the boat back to the Queen (I think it was Queen Victoria still) and tried to negotiate themselves back the republics (the Transvaal Republic). But that one also ended up in 1880 when they started to tax the Boers. Then the Boers said: “No, we're not going to take these tax laws and things like”. They came together at Krugersdorp (6 to 8,000 of them) decided to stand up against Britain. A few battles happened, the last one was at Majuba when they won the battle at the mount. That was the First Anglo-Boer War and then it took us almost 20 years when the second one started.

In that period we know that a lot of other discoveries happened also after the minerals. We know that Britain also came again and tried to take that one. The Second Boer War was the bad one. I think that's the one that when the Russian volunteers also came to assist the Boers against the British who really started making war. War is bad, but I mean they've added an extra element of concentration camps. That it's an era or it's an event that actually caused a lot of trouble, a lot of pain in our in our history, if we look back at that period in time.

The other thing that I want to say is that it was only the Boers and the Zulus on the African soil that I'm aware of (imight be in other colonial countries as well) that won the battles against the British and defeated them properly. The Boers were the second; the Zulus were actually the first. The Zulus basically destroyed in 1877 at the Battle of Isandlwana the whole army of the British. Thereafter it was the Boers in 1880-1881 and then, of course, the 1899, when the Second Anglo-Boer War started and that one carried on for almost three years. I think some of the historians say that was a war not won by the British and not lost by the Boers. The main thing that we signed an agreement on the 31st of May 1902 where we said that it should be a new peace agreement.

If we want to talk about the Russian volunteers I just want to ask you from your side what role did the Russian volunteers play in the Anglo-Boer War and how significant do you think was their contribution from a Russian perspective but also on the ground level?

I read your book and I must say to our viewers it's actually interesting. There's a book called “A Russian on Commando”. This book was written by a Russian that was here. Very interesting that he wrote it I can't remember in the 80s or in the 90s and now it was translated to English. The main thing about this guy in the book, he said that they did not come to tell the Boers how to fight. To be quite honest, I think you guys knew better how to fight than us at that point in time. I think it was just a different environment back then when they fought one another in this war. What role do you think did the Russian soldiers play in the Anglo-Boer War?

Ilya Rogachev: From the military point of view I'm not sure that I can assess this. I'm in no position. But I can provide you with the context and it is important historically to understand better what the relationship between our two peoples was based on, because the Russian society supported the Boers in the war against the Brits. Later we have found ourselves on different sides of the barricades, so to speak. There is an explanation to this, it's a long story though that I would tell you if you have time.

Koot van der Ryst: Go for it. I have time, I don't want to waste your time.

Ilya Rogachev: No, by no means this is a waste of time, certainly. I'm very glad I have a listener to this, who can bring it to the others, because I think it is crucially important actually and many people do not understand this, do not know simply this.

Again I have to go back in history somewhat because after the Russian army defeated Napoleon and after the winter campaign there was a surge in national pride in the Russian Empire also caused by the very fact that the Russian army liberated many European countries that were conquered by Napoleon. It was in March 1814, 210 years ago, that Russian, Prussian and other troops marched into Paris actually. That was this nice date recently, just a few days ago. The Russians took pride in this and there was a rise in these patriotic sentiments and this heightened sense of justice alongside sympathy towards oppressed people in different countries. It went on for many years and sort of became a tradition, a mentality of peoples of the Russian Empire and later on in the USSR.

First of all, I can refer to the sympathy that grew on to other Slavic peoples and also on the basis of religious connotation, religious ties because there were many Christians suffering under the Ottoman yoke in Europe. I can refer to the Greek uprising in 1821 against the Ottomans that became like an all-national project in Russia. The assistance to the Greeks assumed different forms from fundraising to receiving multiple refugees from the Ottoman Empire in the Southern Russian territories and to direct participation in hostilities in the ranks of the insurgents. The key event leading to the independence of Greece actually was the Russian-Turkish War of 1828-29. That was this wave of sympathy but then you can take other events in the Balkans in 1875-76, which became like a true milestone in Russian volunteer movement. That was after Serbia and Bulgaria declared war on the Ottoman Empire and that also caused a wave of solidarity in Russia. Lots of Russian volunteers went there and that was again the high wave of this volunteer movement in Russia. In Serbia there were detachments that were not predominantly but almost exclusively Russian and altogether the number of volunteers there fighting volunteers exceeded 7,000.

At that time in 1875-76 war the Ottoman Empire prevailed but then this solidarity became part of the official foreign policy of the Russian Empire. In 1878 Russia declared war in Turkey and the Ottoman Empire suffered a crushing defeat. As a result, three states became independent and that was Romania, Serbia and Montenegro. Also part of Bulgaria received some autonomy within the Ottoman Empire. If you would like to take somewhat closer to South Africa - it was Abyssinia. In 1896 there was the Battle of Adwa and that was a crucial engagement between the Ethiopians and the Italian colonist army. That was the First Italo-Ethiopian War and Africans prevailed. They also had Russian volunteers fighting on their side against the Italians.

I can go on telling you different stories about that like a Spanish Civil War 1936-1939, when Soviet volunteers took part in the hostilities against the General Franco military that was supported by Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. Again Republicans lost unfortunately at that time. It was exactly the same with South Africa with the Anglo-Boer wars that Russians just felt that they couldn't stay aside. We say about ourselves that we live by heart, we should perhaps be more rational sometimes and follow the law. This exaggerated sense of justice or injustice leads us sometimes rather far away from our homes. It was actually not only the volunteers who fought and you're right, maybe, some of them were better in military sense because they were professional military, a lot of them.

They were discharged, like vacationing, now sometimes we see the same phenomenon: the Western military in Ukraine, in particularly, fighting on the side of Kiev. There were also other kinds, forms of assistance and we mentioned the two hospitals. There is one particular thing that I would like to raise with you because very few people in South Africa know it. The Secondary School for Girls called Oranje in Bloemfontein was established, built and operated in the early 20^th century (1902-1917) until the October Socialist Revolution on the funds allocated by the Russian Imperial Court. With the revolution funding stopped apparently, but that was the initiative for orphaned girls during the Second Anglo-Boer War.

Koot van der Ryst: I understand, is that the Oranje Meisieskool?

Ilya Rogachev: Yeah, the Girl School.

Koot van der Ryst: The other thing I want to say. I have to finish off now, but we want to invite the viewers om hierdie boek te gaan lees. Dis baie interessante boek “A Russian on Commando”. There's another book that I want to show you “Boere en Russe”. It's a very colorful book. It's in Afrikaans and Russian.

Ilya Rogachev: Russian,yes. There is no English and this is not a mistake.

Koot van der Ryst: There you have it, you read it, this one is Russian and this side is Afrikaans. There are some letters that were written and what happened in the Boer War, the friendships that were established after that. Am I right?

Ilya Rogachev: Yes I think so. This is just one of the elements that is reflecting this relationship. Let me get back to the modern times and say that the Border War or the Bush War is very important to understand. It was not the war between the Russians and the Boers; let's not confuse interstate relationship and relationships between the two peoples. It was the war of the socialist system against the former colonial system, against the apartheid regime. It so happened that one of us was on one side and another one on the other side. That shouldn't be transferred, should not be allowed to spoil the relationship between the two peoples. We have, for example, the Veterans of Angola Union, the people who fought there, and guess who their best friends are - the Veterans of the this former Buffalo Battalion. Let's not confuse this, let's separate as we say in Russian cutlets on one side, flies on the other.

Koot van der Ryst: I have to ask this question, why did the National Party or the people back then call Russia the “Rooi Gevaar” or the “Red Danger”?

Ilya Rogachev: I think it is because there was this confrontation between two systems, socialist and capitalist, colonialism and socialism. The USSR was firmly on the side of the oppressed peoples, according to this ideology, and in particular what was, perhaps, badly perceived in the South African Union that in 1960 it was by the initiative of the USSR and through the efforts of its diplomats that the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples was adopted by the United Nations. That was the beginning of the process, I mean politically and diplomatically, of decolonization of Africa. From that point of view it was a threat to the then regime in South Africa.

Koot van der Ryst: Mr Rogachev, I have so many more questions. I want to say to our viewers we want to talk about the multipolar system, we want to talk a little bit about how the world order is busy changing. But we don’t have time now. I definitely see that we can have another interview when we can talk closer on what is currently happening. If we get another time all these problems would have been solved.

We would not have been wiped out as some of these news outlets are actually portraying this whole thing that we're entering a world war. Somebody just needs to press a button then the old world will be gone. I'm not going to put you in that situation but I want to thank you for the opportunity and I hope that we can have another discussion. I think to me you've answered some of the difficult questions that were always kind of a barrier in between us. I couldn't talk to you properly. I think now we know one another a little bit better. You can at least see that we from our side also just have our language, we have our culture and we just want to be respected but also we want to respect others for that. Thank you very much for that. I don't know if you want to have a last word for our viewers.

Ilya Rogachev: I would like just to thank you for this, for allowing me to express myself on certain issues that I felt also were important for this audience in particular and come back soon. Let's have another round.

Koot van der Ryst: Ek se vir u “Baie dankie”.

Ilya Rogachev: Спасибо.